from www.psychologytoday.com/articl...dex.php
<thanx, metafilter!>
The Dream Robbers
What happens when a rat stops dreaming?
In 2004, researchers at the University of Wisconsin at Madison decided to find out. Their method was simple, if a bit devilish.
Step 1:
Strand a rat in a tub of water. In the center of this tiny sea, allot the creature its own little desert island in the form of an inverted flowerpot. The rat can swim around as much as it pleases, but come nightfall, if it wants any sleep, it has to clamber up and stretch itself across the flowerpot, its belly sagging over the drainage hole.
In this uncomfortable position, the rat is able to rest and eventually fall asleep. But as soon as the animal hits REM sleep, the muscular paralysis that accompanies this stage of vivid dreaming causes its body to slacken. The rat slips through the hole and gets dunked in the water. The surprised rat is then free to crawl back onto the pot, lick the drops off its paws, and go back to sleep—but it won't get any REM sleep.
Step 2:
After several mostly dreamless nights, the creature is subjected to a virtual decathlon of physical ordeals designed to test its survival behaviors. Every rat is born with a set of instinctive reactions to threatening situations. These behaviors don't have to be learned; they're natural defenses—useful responses accrued over millennia of rat society.
The dream-deprived rats flubbed each of the tasks. When plopped down in a wide-open field, they did not scurry to the safety of a more sheltered area; instead, they recklessly wandered around exposed areas. When shocked, they paused briefly and then went about their business, rather than freezing in their tracks the way normal rats do. When confronted with a foreign object in their burrow, they did not bury it; instead, they groomed themselves. Had the animals been out in the wild, they would have made easy prey.
The surprise came during Step 3.
Each rat was given amphetamines and tested again; nothing changed. If failure to be an effective rat were due to mere sleep deprivation, amphetamines would have reversed the effect. But that didn't happen. These rats weren't floundering because they were sleepy. Something else was going on—but what?
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sleep & dreaming has always fascinated me ~ it's nice to read about research being done in this mostly unknown (or un-agreed upon) area!
love all-ways,
mem
<thanx, metafilter!>
The Dream Robbers
What happens when a rat stops dreaming?
In 2004, researchers at the University of Wisconsin at Madison decided to find out. Their method was simple, if a bit devilish.
Step 1:
Strand a rat in a tub of water. In the center of this tiny sea, allot the creature its own little desert island in the form of an inverted flowerpot. The rat can swim around as much as it pleases, but come nightfall, if it wants any sleep, it has to clamber up and stretch itself across the flowerpot, its belly sagging over the drainage hole.
In this uncomfortable position, the rat is able to rest and eventually fall asleep. But as soon as the animal hits REM sleep, the muscular paralysis that accompanies this stage of vivid dreaming causes its body to slacken. The rat slips through the hole and gets dunked in the water. The surprised rat is then free to crawl back onto the pot, lick the drops off its paws, and go back to sleep—but it won't get any REM sleep.
Step 2:
After several mostly dreamless nights, the creature is subjected to a virtual decathlon of physical ordeals designed to test its survival behaviors. Every rat is born with a set of instinctive reactions to threatening situations. These behaviors don't have to be learned; they're natural defenses—useful responses accrued over millennia of rat society.
The dream-deprived rats flubbed each of the tasks. When plopped down in a wide-open field, they did not scurry to the safety of a more sheltered area; instead, they recklessly wandered around exposed areas. When shocked, they paused briefly and then went about their business, rather than freezing in their tracks the way normal rats do. When confronted with a foreign object in their burrow, they did not bury it; instead, they groomed themselves. Had the animals been out in the wild, they would have made easy prey.
The surprise came during Step 3.
Each rat was given amphetamines and tested again; nothing changed. If failure to be an effective rat were due to mere sleep deprivation, amphetamines would have reversed the effect. But that didn't happen. These rats weren't floundering because they were sleepy. Something else was going on—but what?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sleep & dreaming has always fascinated me ~ it's nice to read about research being done in this mostly unknown (or un-agreed upon) area!
love all-ways,
mem
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SF Bay Area
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Re: dreaming
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 4:40 AMNice one mem - I agree, it is a facinating subject -
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Re: dreaming
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 1:53 PMAlso a study in psychology Today a long time ago that said that REM sleep deprivation drove people to forms of psychosis. This would make sense since we process a lot of "startling" everyday material.
I think that the article also referred to psychopathic behaviour but i could be biased here and not remembering correctly.
You see, I wrote a sci-fi a long time ago where the lack of REM sleep destroyed a society ba latering the behaviour of its members but I am sure it has been done by someone else. It is intriguing.
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Re: dreaming
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 1:28 AMMy brother in law participated in the first human sleep deprivation study (according to him) done at Stanford U about 1964. Every person who signed up for it (and wanting the money they were offered) dropped. The result was, yes, they ended up "psycho". Once at home and well-rested he was back to his studious self, and became a pediatric neurologist. I'm sure he would be very interested in the rat on the flower pot water torture dream deprivation study.
Yup, that's what I think is the reason the Rat lost it's natural instincts. Like anyone who is tortured they lose their sense of humanity. Um.. Rodent identity? Shell-shocked soldiers, abused women, populations that have been starved and raped and forced to leave their land are not able to continue to have normal responses to normal stimuli.
I don't understand what was the point of giving them amphetamines? Why would anyone think that would bring them back out of their shock? Or boost their ability to get REM sleep? or, make their natural instincts return?
A bi-polar who continues to go without sufficient sleep, does not get any (or enough) REM, therefore their psychological stability falls apart, and they get to the point of having trouble telling the difference between reality and the hypnogogic (sp.) hallucinations that present themselves when their body is sending the go-to-sleep signals they are not able to respond to.
I think the rat experiment was lacking. Doing some EEG's occasionally, drawing blood to measure melatonin levels dissecting the brain and comparing it to healthy untampered with rats would have added more to it. -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 2:40 PMI agree that this is not a definitive experiement ~
I'm just happy to see the topic being approched as this is a HUGE uncharted territory of our everyday lives & points to a massive deficit in our basic knowledge about ourselves
one small step at a time...
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 3:06 PMmem - There have actually been a lot of studies done on sleep deprivation and the role of sleep. A lot of them tend to be related to functionality, and quite a few have been done by the military, but they are out there. Dreams and dreaming have also gotten a lot of attention, though obviously the specific content of dreams is a subjective affair and generally looked at more within the framework of psychology than neurobiology :-) -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:24 PMI think there is a lot more work that could be done in this field, especially if researchers conducted experiments with yogis such as the work Richard Davidson, Ph.D., of the University of Wisconsin, has conducted with the assistance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Western science has traditionally shown interest in western phenomenon, or at least a western understanding of phenomenon, and that seems to be a bit like studying only the 'light' side of the moon. What if there are little green albinos on the other side? We might never find out, but surely the discovery of such would shift our current paradigm significantly. Carl Jung was on the right track WRT this I think. -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:41 PMmichael - I'm certainly not saying there's not much more to be learned and investigated, as in any field of study. I was just pointing out that actually quite a bit of research and study has been done on both sleep deprivation and dreams. It actually makes more sense for Western researchers to study westerners simply because that's who their research is geared towards and interested in. This doesn't mean it's not worth studying other people who are outside the norm, of course :-)
Are you really putting forth an analogy to little green men on the other side of the moon in a science tribe? ;-) -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 6:45 PMWell, I come from a very eclectic and iinterdisciplinary background and in my experience they are more blue-gray than green, but...oh nevermind, there are more apporpriate tribes for that discussion perhaps ;)
I quite disagree with the notion that "It actually makes more sense for Western researchers to study westerners..."
That seems a) arrogant - not 'you', but the notion of a scientific ethnocentrism - and b) counter-intuitive to the notion of discovery which forms the very basis of science.
This attitude lingers throughout Western society/culture/paradigms, and is a reflection of the susceptibility of humans as a whole towards systems of control. Especially given our current (western) propensity towards monopolization of market and mind share. Western science has harnessed enough destructive power to instantaneously eradicate the creative output ever produced by all of humankind largely backed by morally corrupt (at worst) or disinterested (at best) modus operandi. Who needs dreams and God when you can take a pill and harness the atom.
We're at a crossroads in our collective human evolution and fortunately I do see a lot of promise in science and technology to provide some timely solutions to many of the problems we face. I think the solution will depend upon a union of creativity and analysis that in my experience many eastern traditions inherently embrace. We need to think outside of the box we have placed the planet in and reach out to embrace all living beings that we share this time-space continuum with. Have you read HHDL's book "Ethics for a New Millennium"? This is where I am coming from and he is far more articulate than I... -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:37 PMmichael - I guess it's perspective. I find it kind of odd and arrogant - not to mention biased - to assume that only studying yogis would be more constructive than studying Westerners when interested in Westerners. Particularly in a tribe that's centred around a Western discipline. I find that arrogance tends to have more to do with the individual - be they a yogi or a scientist. Considering that Western science has and does study non-Westerners (as well as Western religious adherents who report ecstatic experiences) but Eastern religious figures (barring one or two exceptions like the Dalia Lama) poo-poo Western science and philosophy if it doesn't confirm their bias, you might want to check the assumptions you're making about openness and curiosity. I noted that I thought studying both average people and yogis was useful, though obviously when looking to understand the role of sleep for the average westerner that studying the people in question makes sense.
I certainly don't think science is perfect or holds all the answers to many of life's questions, that tends to be the claim of religions. -
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Re: dreaming
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 6:33 AMScience and evangelism just don't mix, much as evangelicals try to make them. The reality, of course, is that scientists in Japan, China and India do studies on Japanese, Chinese and Indian people. There's plenty of "Western" science that goes on in "Eastern" countries (though it doesn't even make sense to call it "Western" science). There was even a recent study which looked at the neurobiological differences between your average Westerner and Easterner (to take a look at the impact of culture on the brain). I'm not sure what Michael or others consider to be non-Western or "Eastern" science, I mean I know it's been trendy for Eastern religions and new age gurus around the world to claim that their practice is "science" ever since they came into contact with the notion of science or when looking to try to give themselves some form of authority and associate themselves with reality not mysticism, but scientists in "the East" practice the same kind of science as scientists in the West. Just because a religion calls itself a science doesn't actually mean it *is* science. There's nothing wrong with mysticism per se, it's just not science.
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Re: dreaming
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:18 AM"here was even a recent study which looked at the neurobiological differences between your average Westerner and Easterner (to take a look at the impact of culture on the brain)"
Is there anyway you could share that?. -
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Re: dreaming
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:32 AMDust - I posted an article about the study in a new thread since we've veered far from the original topic :-)
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:18 PMThere have actually been a lot of studies done on sleep deprivation and the role of sleep.
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sure, but as far as I know there is still no clear consensus on anything but describing the base physiology of sleep ~ the question of "why sleep?" is still wide open ~ for something that just about everybody does every day, this seems shockingly inadequate to me ~ especially wih all the "sleep labs" that exist
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:39 PMmem - Actually, the question "why sleep?" has been at the centre of quite a few studies. The effects of sleep deprivation and associated studies also start to answer the question "why sleep?" pretty well since they show what happens when we don't sleep :-) I'll see if I can find some of the studies for you.
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:01 PMMary says: "there is still no clear consensus on anything but describing the base physiology of sleep"
Because nobody's asked the yogis! They have studied this and accumulated over 3000 years of collective knowledge. When we sleep our inner energies collect into our heart center, where the consciousness resides, and we can briefly experience the clear light mind of Ātmā. Every human alive has this innate potential to realize and develop into a fully realized being. The problem is that Science is dominated by philosophies and linguistic conventions that prevent it from discovering these truths, not by any inherent lack of ability. The scientific methodology is sound, its application is out of tune. What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves. -
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 10:15 PM> When we sleep our inner energies collect into our heart center, where the consciousness resides, and we can briefly experience the clear light mind of Ātmā.
In the immortal words of Christopher Hitchens, claims that are put forth without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: dreaming
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 11:40 AMMichael,
I'm all in favor of using scientific methods to study mysticism - mystics have found some clever ways to alter their conscious experience and these will almost certainly correspond to measurable brain states. Some of this work is already underway as mentioned by others in this thread.
The rub, as I see it, is that the web of concepts traditionally used to describe and relate mystical experiences does not lend itself to scientific experimentation. Some examples:
<"When we sleep our inner energies collect into our heart center">
It's hard to see how a concept like 'inner energies' can be operationally defined. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oper...definition Scientists need to deal with measurable quantities.
<"our heart center, where the consciousness resides">
It was established definitively in 1616 that the heart is a pump for circulating blood through the body. To suggest otherwise in 2008 is on par with suggesting that we live on a flat earth. There is a strong consensus that conscious awareness is a brain phenomenon, and it appears to have its hub in the thalamus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamus#Function Damaging the thalamus has profound effects on conscious awareness, and destroying it will produce an irreversible coma.
<"and we can briefly experience the clear light mind of Ātmā">
This might work fine as a metaphor to guide people toward the right kinds of experiences, but for science we need concepts that are grounded in publicly observable quantities.
Scientists still lack, for the most part, a unified theory of brain function, and research in the intentional alteration of consciousness (e.g. mysticism) might lead to a reshaping of the conceptual framework by which we think about our minds. But it seems unlikely that this reshaping will go the way of mystical language, because that discourse uses concepts that are typically too vague, too private, and too unmeasurable to be scientifically useful. I won't be surprised if mystical methods are vindicated, but it's not going to happen by importing a mystical vocabulary into science. -
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Re: dreaming
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 7:39 AMVoodoo - Thanks for the eloquence and good explanation of "the rub" :-) I ran across this article about an exhibition on sleep and dreaming that I thought some may find interesting and relevant to the topic, and that talks about how little we still definitively know. It's not exactly science and does ignore some of the science out there but it's a fun read nonetheless :-)
www.forteantimes.com/feature...eam.html -
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Re: dreaming
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:05 AMthanx for the link, Fifi ~ I enjoyed the article quite a bit :)
this is my favorite quote:
In fact, despite the ongoing efforts of scientists, and the hopes of those who seek to bring rationality to this most intangible of subjects, it is the artists included in this exhibition who seem to come closest to some kind of truth about dreaming.
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: dreaming
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:50 AMmem - Glad you enjoyed it, I thought you might :-) On my part, I think art explores all kinds of areas of human experience in ways that science will never be able to, the two disciplines simply serve different purposes even if some of their concerns overlap. It's why I chose to study art not science, even though science has always interested me :-) From my perspective, art is all about exploring subjectivity and finding the universal in the subjective (or it's one of the things it explores!), even when it's about representing what we see and *seems* quite objective. Kind of like psychology, which is more of an art than a science (even though scientific methodologies are increasingly applied). Science isn't designed to tell us the meaning of life, and it never will. It can potentially tell us all kinds of interesting things about how and why we create and need meaning, and other neat stuff. I think science and art can both reveal truths, just different kinds. And neither is more valuable or valid than the other :-)
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Re: dreaming
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 7:55 AMVoodoo - "I'm all in favor of using scientific methods to study mysticism - mystics have found some clever ways to alter their conscious experience and these will almost certainly correspond to measurable brain states."
I agree totally with Voodoo here, and am generally interested in what's going on neurobiologically and cognitively when people are in altered states (be they induced via chanting, meditation or drugs). And I'd add that, from a personal perspective, I think exploring the experience and taking a subjective look can be a really interesting thing to do. Particularly if one doesn't just remains open to the experience and doesn't become attached to pre-existing explanations or attributed causations for an experience. I find just sitting with the unknown to be quite an interesting practice in watching one's own mind within itself :-) Many of my personal questions about the neurobiology of certain experiences comes from having had those experiences.
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Re: dreaming
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 3:35 PMI have noticed myself that during times of regular marijuana use in my life that I stop recalling dreams completely. I have already considered this in terms of repercussions relevant to the rat study mentioned. But I wonder if not recalling dreams is the same as not experience REM sleep? I know this is not the case but wonder at the very consistent lack of recalling any dreams? I think there is plenty of evidence now showing that lack of sleep in general and REM sleep in specific has a direct link to memory and learning. Could this be why Potheads are considered to be such addle brains? -
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Re: dreaming
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 4:52 PMD - The addled thing comes from the short term memory loss associated with using pot. Which may - this is a totally unscientific guess - also be a factor in the lack of dream recall. Generally, not remembering one's dreams isn't the same as not dreaming.
When I was a teenager I set out to remember as many of my dreams as I could. I got pretty good at it - I found that a that a lot of what I dreamed was actually quite boring. It's reruns of what we did during the day (often quite realistically) and preparations for the next day (practicing what we expect to happen). Most of it wasn't the interesting dreams we tend to remember spontaneously (for me anyway).
Recent research seems to indicate that an important aspect of dreaming is sorting out what to remember and what to forget, and that the forgetting that's done during sleep is very important. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that. -
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Re: dreaming
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 7:06 PMI had a wet dream at 42 years of age!
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remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:35 AMAs I recall, a typical nights sleep alternated between REM sleep and deep sleep, with about 4 REM sessions
starting at 15 minutes, increasing to 45 minutes.
So DRDRDRDRD
D=deep R=REM
If you wake up from REM, you remember the dream, but not from deep sleep.
I had heard that the body usually arranges to wake from deep sleep; it is only when awakened at an unusual time
(say by an alarm or in an unfamiliar bed) that one remembers the dreams. I have observed that I often remember
dreams when I am traveling and sleeping in different beds. -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 5:47 AMSetting an alarm clock and waking at random gives interesting results.
It was conducted by Dr Helen Wambaugh (sp).(parapsychology study) in a way to collect material and she did find interesting things.
Keeping a notepad by the bed or a voice-activated voice recorder is a must because of the elusive nature of dreams.
In one she was totally befuddled by the surprise wakening and told "herself" "Oh, where am I now. Oh Yes I try to pass myself from Helen Wambaugh"
She found it was funny and taught she may have hit the deep self. -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:03 AMif you really want to have a lucid dreams get one of those nicotine patches and put it on an hour before you go to bed. Never fails. -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:25 AMRobert - Do you mean vivid or lucid? Lucid dreams are where one has control and is conscious that one is dreaming. -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 7:21 AMwell for me vivid but that patch would give a lucid dreamer one hell of a ride! -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 7:32 AMRobert - I'll keep that in mind if I ever get bored with my sleep and dreams! ;-) -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 8:06 AMok....but just dont get hooked on the patch they are expensive! But I remember having dreams when ever I had on on when I was quiting and be amazed at this ability to give me lots of dreams at night when I wore one.
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:24 AMENIAD - It's actually pretty easy to remember one's dreams, all you have to do is keep a dream journal and go to sleep with the intent to remember. It can take a bit of practice but it's not hard to do. Same with lucid dreaming (dreams where you know you're dreaming and define/choose your action in the dream). At this point in my life, I'm pretty happy to let my sleeping brain do it's thing without needing to be aware of it. I know that if I *need* to remember a dream or something, I will :-)
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 6:19 AMArtwit - Actually there are a number of stages of sleep and it's commonly accepted that we don't dream during deep sleep (non-REM or Delta phase) sleep. The deepest phases of sleep are when our body (including our brain) regenerates. Here's a link to a pretty good description of the cycles
www.sleepdisorderchannel.com/stages/
People tend to be less relaxed when traveling or sleeping somewhere unfamiliar so tend to sleep less deeply and wake more often, this makes it more likely you'll remember dreams. Plus, traveling usually involves all kinds of new info and experiences for the brain to make sense of so it's likely that dreams are more active but they're more likely to be full of non-mundane experiences (and fears).
One of the reasons sleep deprivation is an aspect of many rituals is that it primes the mind to hallucinate (a common feature of sleep deprivation). The army, of course, actively uses sleep deprivation as a form of torture, as well as being part of the methodology of indoctrination of soldiers themselves. The same techniques are used by cults. It's very common for soldiers to be suffering from sleep deprivation and to be compensating for it with the use of amphetamines.
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 4:57 AMSadly I do not remember much these days.
Except a connection with a man who sent me an e-mail on tribe yesterday. I seem to connect to people through dreams first sometimes.
I checked the profile and the setting he lives in was the setting of the dream. Sometimes the person is not exactly the same physically but more of a primal form on the personnality level.
Sorry, but that is the aspect of dreaming that I am interested in: connecting with the universe. -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 5:11 AMENIAD - Ah well, you may want another tribe then since this one is about discussing things in the context of cognitive science. Enjoy your dreams :-) -
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Re: remembering dreaming - and time of waking
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 4:10 PMI have always had a problem with studies such as this, where sleep deprivation is equated with a lack of dreaming. Yes, by interrupting the natural sleep cycle, you prevent a subject from dreaming, but you can never really ISOLATE the act of dreaming from that of deep sleep. Thus, it's hard for me to get behind these studies that say "not dreaming makes you clumsy and unable to complete basic cognitive tasks" when really the confounding variable is a lack of uninterrupted sleep, not necessarily the dream state.
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Re: dreaming
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 4:12 PMThis has not been entirely true in my experience though I'm not sure I am a typical 'pot-head'. I have used regularly off and on for the past 20 years. During this time I have also done dream work and kept a journal of my dreaming activities. The dreamwork has reamained consistant while the pot use tends to come in 'binge' cycles - when it's around I use and when it's not that is fine too - though I prefer the mental state when using. I have not noticed a coorelation either way WRT to the lucidness or recollection of dreaming states.
I know I am not a typical 'dreamer' either because I practice six-session yoga, and thus enter and leave the dream state more often than someone who has one sleep cycle per day.
WRT to pot use in general I have found a very significant difference in the experience of smoking -vs- ingesting. I much prefer the effects of ingesting - it is a long slow curve as opposed to a sudden 'high' then taper off - as the 'negative' side effects such as itchy eyes and stupor are not present. It's like taking a time release medication when ingested. I also approach it as a medicinal and n
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