This article is endemic of a sickness in the land - drugging children to keep them under control:
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070..._to_death_9
Setting aside the question of whether these people should have ever been allowed to breed in the first place, a doctor prescribing these medicines to a 2 year old is a criminal. How could they possibly know a 2 year old is suffering from ADHD?
I find it incredible the number of young people diagnosed with attention disorders. I never heard of this when I was young, but it seems like every parent I've talked to in the last 20 years has had at least one child on some kind of medication for it, usually boys. I wonder if it is a result of excess early stimulation from television along a high sugar diet, or is it an easy way of keeping teenagers under control in a school that is not engaging them?
Is this a problem for real with kids, or is it a control method for adults and schools? And if it is for real, why has it become so prevalent in the last couple of decades?
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070..._to_death_9
Setting aside the question of whether these people should have ever been allowed to breed in the first place, a doctor prescribing these medicines to a 2 year old is a criminal. How could they possibly know a 2 year old is suffering from ADHD?
I find it incredible the number of young people diagnosed with attention disorders. I never heard of this when I was young, but it seems like every parent I've talked to in the last 20 years has had at least one child on some kind of medication for it, usually boys. I wonder if it is a result of excess early stimulation from television along a high sugar diet, or is it an easy way of keeping teenagers under control in a school that is not engaging them?
Is this a problem for real with kids, or is it a control method for adults and schools? And if it is for real, why has it become so prevalent in the last couple of decades?
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North Carolina
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Unsu...
Re: a sickness in the land
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 1:05 PMI posted this in the * politics * tribe. Scary stuff. I hope the doctor's called to account for prescribing such heavy meds to a child so young.
I think more boys than girls are diagnosed ADHD because they're harder to handle when young and someone got the bizarre notion that all children should be either docile by nature or medicated to make them docile, quiet, well-behaved. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 2:58 PMI wish I *had* been diagnosed when younger, but the one thing I generally wasn't was a behavior problem. On Ritalin I can still see all of the cool branching paths as I undertake a task or enter a conversation, but now it's more often up to me whether or not to follow them rather than staying on track. This was an unbelievable relief/revelation when I started Ritalin about two years ago at age 36.
I'm still very much myself, just more effective at it now.
My opinion is that ADHD meds are not so much overprescribed as MISprescribed.
And yeah, what's giving this stuff to 2-year-olds? That seems wrong. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Tue, April 10, 2007 - 4:49 PMI think Stephanie's point is a good one here.. It's the mis-prescription that we ought to be concerned with - Medicating Kids simply to keep them placid is wrong beyond belief, but of course there are more diagnosed cases of ADD today than there were 20 years ago - Methods have improved, AWARENESS has improved. People have a vague idea of what they're seeing, and they seek professional advice. I'd make the point that there wasn't a single person around with e Nut allergy when I was a kid, but that's a whole other argument about over-immunisation. Simply put, do a whole load of people suffer from ADD? Without a doubt. Do more people, as a percentage, suffer from ADD today compared to 20 years ago? Probably not. Is handing powerful meds out like Candy a bad thing? C'mon.. Do you need me to tell you? -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 5:05 AMLoki - actually the rise in allergies has more to do with overly sterile environments during childhood. It's called the hygiene hypothesis (and it's a very well respected and increasingly proven hypothesis) and it proposes that a lack of contact with normal dirt and bacteria can result in a poorly primed immune system (breast feeding is also plays an important role in priming the immune system). The poorly primed immune system - one that hasn't had enough expose to normal germs and bacteria so it's stimulated to create an appropriate immune response - will overreact. Immunizations are against specific childhood diseases that can be deadly (there's a reason why there are less polio crippled and badly pox scarred adults around these days, and deaths from these diseases), and since they actually stimulate the immune system to create antibodies they're actually contributing to the body's immune functioning.
I know people my age with nut and fruit allergies (though nuts weren't banned in any schools when I was a kid) and I'm 43 so while it's a bigger deal now, it wasn't an unheard of allergy before. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 8:33 AMI always thought one shouldn't try to be too pure in an unclean world. This hygiene hypothesis seems to put some scientific study behind that offhand idea.
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Re: a sickness in the land
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 11:17 AMEntirely my point, Fifi - As I said, I didn't want to get onto the whole subject of over-immunisation, overly-sterile environments, and the general idea of a nanny state, as I thought it was a bit off topis, and I may well have ranted for an extended paragraph or so..
Kids should eat dirt - It's a simple truth, and it served me well.. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Tue, April 17, 2007 - 11:21 AMHere's an interesting article that's slanted towards the mercury hypothesis but also offers differing viewpoints :)
www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 2:12 PMthis short educational video sums up pretty well how I feel about this whole isssue
www.youtube.com/watch
love all-ways,
mem
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 8:35 AMThis is hardly new. In the 19th century, laudanum (alcoholic tincture of opium) was administered to children of
the overworked parents to keep them quiet at home...
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 8:43 AMOr the ever popular brandy in the baby's bottle to get it to sleep....
As Artwit so astutely points out, the idea that children should been seen and not heard is a pretty old one. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 10:23 AMPerhaps they have better chemical methods of control now, but old or not, giving strong drugs to an undeveloped brain has got to have negative long term growth effects. -
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Re: a sickness in the land
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 10:57 AMI'm certainly not advocating giving inappropriate drugs to children, or adults for that matter. Personally I'd wager money that a great deal of behavioral problems diagnosed in children have more to do with poor parenting than anything else. Negligent or abuse parenting can also have negative and permanent long term effects on neurobiological development (and overall development). In all the sensationalized news stories I've read about inappropriate prescribing to children there's been widespread neglect and abuse that encompasses the parents and the system (health insurance that will only pay for drugs not therapy, a therapist not reporting abusive and incompetent parents, etc).
Certainly sensationalizing the problem and not clearly looking at all the elements that combine to create these toxic situations doesn't help get a clear picture of all the responsible parties' contributions to the situation and how to prevent the same thing from happening again. -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 2:38 PMIn a case like this, I don't think it can help but get sensationalized. Killing a 4 year old with drugs is pretty sensational. I only hope it opens up a rational debate about what is going on with using these drugs on small children, and the whole idea of chemical control in general. Personally, I'm outraged by the story, it sounds like irresponsiblity by the doctor, and for the parents, it's not clear they are mentally competent to be responsible, or even to be parents. They both reported mental problems, the father was up for sexual abuse in another case, and all the children were on ADD drugs.
There's nothing inherently wrong with behavior and mood modification with chemicals, I know it has helped millions of people. I do it all the time, without a perscription :-) , so I'm not being a prude. But using drugs to control behavior against people's will, or when they're too young to know what is going on, that to me is criminal. This is verging on the control themes of Brave New World, The Futurological Congress, even The Matrix territory of mind control. It's not science fiction any more, it's actually happening to people, to make them good citizens? Where does it stop? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 2:28 PMRust - Isn't it the neglect and abuse that's criminal, and the drugs are just one aspect of this abuse? What I mean when I talk about sensationalizing these kinds of stories is presenting them as all about the drugs being prescribed when the real issue is the lack of appropriate and timely intervention combined with abusive and neglectful parenting. In a case like this it's not only the prescribing doctor who is responsible but the entire community surrounding this family that allowed the abuse to continue. Ultimately the parents are responsible for their children - whether they're screwed up themselves or not. If they're not fit to be parents then the state is responsible for allowing them to continue to parent. To blame only the doctor (who I do think was very negligent) is to ignore all the other contributing factors. The doctor is responsible for her actions and non-actions, just as the parents are responsible for their actions including giving their child an overdose of drugs.
And how can one be "on ADD"? ADD is Attention Deficit Disorder...it's a condition.
Of course this story can be written about in a way that's not sensationalized. And if you're advocating rational discourse then to suppose that it will emerge from the very non-rational arena of media sensationalism - and a sensationalist discourse - doesn't really make much sense. -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Sun, March 25, 2007 - 3:42 PMI agree, it is a bigger picture and a big circle of responsibility. The story points out how the girl fell through the cracks of the system. That's why I say it's a sickness in the land, the abuse and neglect is everywhere, and people just throw chemicals at it to cover it up. It seems they're treating symptons, without trying to find the cause. Supposedly once someone comes down with ADD, there is no cure, but what is the cause in the first place? And it appears that people are being treated for it as a control method, whether they really have it or not.
It's the only story I can find about it, well written or not... perhaps it will take some sensation to wake people up to what is happening, -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 5:32 AMRust - the neglect and abuse of children is hardly something new. It just used to be hidden, or taken for granted as a parent's right to "discipline" a "bad" child. Obviously some people are now hiding it behind saying their child has behavioral problems due to ADD. One of the problems here is that the symptoms of ADD and ADHD can be very similar to those of a child who's being abused and who is acting out. That doesn't mean they're the same thing.
One doesn't "come down" with ADD, it's a condition not a disease and it's not contagious. Kids who do have severe ADD and ADHD really benefit from appropriate treatment - not to treat them would be a form of neglect.
Sensationalism doesn't wake people up, it hypes them up. It's part of the whole smoke and mirrors to keep people distracted - it is, in and of itself, part of a larger cultural case of ADD - people will only pay attention if something is lurid and offers heightened emotional experiences...and then only for as long as it's exciting and until it's replaced by more lurid "news". While people may become horrified and righteously angry, they'll still be looking for the simple answers and for someone other than themselves to blame. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 10:23 AMi think it's fairly disturbing that we've created this idea of mental malfunction based on such an obviously culturally specific model of normalicy in children. -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 2:23 PMyeah ~ I'd say quite disturbing!
love all-ways,
mem
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 2:30 PMbut lets be honest, isnt this beneficial to society, and wouldnt any other culture more then likely do the same? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 3:11 PMi don't know, is it? you'd have to present a pretty strong case to justify drugging kids into submission en masse in those terms.
and the fact that other cultures don't do the same is a pretty strong clue. cultures with better test scores than ours.
"isnt this beneficial to society" -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, March 26, 2007 - 3:16 PM"i think it's fairly disturbing that we've created this idea of mental malfunction based on such an obviously culturally specific model of normalicy in children.'
I was mainly referring to the "culturally specific model of normalcy" -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Tue, March 27, 2007 - 10:28 AMoh ok. yeah of course there are going to be models of normalicy. but when we start prescribing drugs then we get into the territory of conflating that model of normalicy with the "normal" functioning of the brain. and our analysis of the ways that brains function and are thus medicated should not be clouded by cultural assumptions. -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Tue, March 27, 2007 - 10:34 AMok ,I was just making sure we were on the same wavelength, otherwise I was going to call your doctor
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 9:21 AMDustin - Indeed. Children MUST be controlled. We MUST put a stop to all that playing, and only paying attention to fun and interesting things, and most importantly we must put a stop to that terrible, terrible depraved joy that they get from physical movement. Good lord - they're in touch with their feelings and desires.....society WILL crumble if they aren't drugged into submission. After all, now that corporal punishment is no longer allowed - and you just can't kick some sense into the non-subservient little buggers - what other tool do parents and teachers have apart from pills? Talking to kids? Respecting their humanity and personhood? Why would society and adults start doing this now when it's never been the way it's done? Quick, get them in that gray cubicle before they see the sunlight and smell the grass! -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 10:41 AMIts sad, but art and literature is full of examples of the individuals struggles against the needs of society, all we've done here is updated our methods
PS don't get me wrong this is nothing I agree with, but thought it was worth pointing out
PSS didn't one of Magaret Mead's books deal with this very subject -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 11:02 AMYep, the society vs the individual struggle is pretty much an ongoing theme in human history. As is trying to get kids to conform to whatever the social norm happens to be. Which, of course, doesn't make it a good thing. It just means it's "normal" human behavior. Whether that makes it healthy or not, is another thing completely.
Personally I think it's important to understand things like this in a historical context rather than assuming it's something new, so I'm all for pointing these things out :)
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 11:39 AManyone got any ideas on the Mead book, I remember reading something along those lines back in Junior High, but for the life of me, I cant think of the authors name (it mainly focused on New Guinea, so Mead is my best Guess)
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Wed, March 28, 2007 - 9:16 PMI agree that it is an ongoing theme. A theme that emerges from only considering the struggle and discomfort of a changing perpective as the child matures. It would certainly be devolution if the human experience was one of joy and comfort when we learn that we have been wrong. The growing pains of pre-adolescence and puberty are as real and vivid in an emotional context as they are in a physical one.
The reality of that pain creates empathy for those children by anyone who has experienced it. Adults who look no further than their own discomfort with the 'circumstances of youth', fail to resolve the issues and understand the theme of "social norms' being imposed on vulnerable individuals. In fact I would argue that the motivation that creates the appearance of cruel or unreasonable pressure to conform, is actually the human instinct to protect children in a society where dangerous predators seek them out as victims. By dangerous predators I mean not only the criminal and inept 'head-cases' that live at large, but even the faceless forces of a free market.
I think a characterization of parents and concerned adults, even in a community, as oppresive or controlling is wrong. The real motivation is concern and a desire to protect the young from bad decisions, bad habits, and painfully the fact that until they are biologically mature they are incapable of making all the 'right choices'. If we could simply explain to them that we love them and want what is best for them, without the thoughtless distraction created by less responsible adults, perhaps they would sooner experience the compassion and social conscience that we all hope they will develop.
Sadly, many children and young adults experience a reality that includes a perpetual and life long self-loathing that only begins to exist when they have grown into adults, and have to look back at their mistakes, and see ever more clearly the cost of their choices.
I think a proper perspective on behavior-changing drugs in children is that if a schedule of medications prevents them from creating a lifelong unresolvable pain, then thank heaven those pharmacutical companies are flush with funds for good research.
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Thu, March 29, 2007 - 5:42 AMJon - Some parents and institutions actually are repressive and controlling, and their own needs and desires trump those of the child. There's not really any blanket statement that can be made about parents' motivations. Parent who beat their child routinely say they're doing so "out of love" and for "their own good". That doesn't make their actions any less abusive or damaging. Nor does it actually make their claim to be doing it "out of love" true. And, I think we're all aware that the drug companies themselves are dangerous amoral predators.
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Thu, March 29, 2007 - 8:06 AMsounds like fear to me. i would guess that fear is the motivation for most of the awful things people do. add that to tired, stressed out, and probably fairly incompetant in the first place and "controlling" gets to be the least of your worries.
"I think a characterization of parents and concerned adults, even in a community, as oppresive or controlling is wrong. The real motivation is concern and a desire to protect the young from bad decisions, bad habits, and painfully the fact that until they are biologically mature they are incapable of making all the 'right choices'. "
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 3:43 AM>>I think a characterization of parents and concerned adults, even in a community, as oppresive or controlling is wrong. The real motivation is concern and a desire to protect the young from bad decisions, bad habits, and painfully the fact that until they are biologically mature they are incapable of making all the 'right choices'<<
Childhood education has always been about training and programming someone to be a good and useful citizen, and there have always been those that didn't fit in. What seems new is the mass use of chemicals as kind of a blanket control method for children who aren't already numbed by the system.
There's no argument that people are suffering from ADD, ADHD, bi-polar disorder, and a whole range of postmodern mental symptoms, and that chemical regulation is a proven method of easing symptoms.
To me, the questions here are:
--Why does there seem to be more with these problems now, or do we just have better understanding what was already there?
--How many people are being diagnosed and given drugs when they're not suffering from ADD or any real behavior problems, but are given the drugs as a means of easy control?
--How can a baby possibly be diagnosed with attention deficit problems? Even if they could be, surely putting babies on strong psychoactive drugs must cause some changes in brain is developed? Wouldn’t these kind of changes have long term negative development issues? These aren’t brain growth tonics they’re being given. -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 8:32 AMRust - Do you think there's something wrong with being a "useful citizen" that contributes to the well being of themselves and others? Historically, kids who didn't go to school also had to be "useful citizens" and work on the farm or in the family business. I'm not sure what issue you have with "usefulness". Being able to participate and feel that one is contributing and a "useful" part of one's tribe is an important element of feeling emotionally engaged and as if one belongs and is invested, which gives one a feeling of security, well being and purpose. If anything, it could well be a lack of "usefulness" and ineffective teaching of the tools needed for one to be useful for oneself or others, that is the problem with schools in some countries.
Childhood education has served different purposes depending on the time, the place, and who's doing the teaching. Even back in the hunting/gathering days children would have been taught how to make themselves useful and trained in the skills that they'd need to survive as an adult. In many poor countries education isn't a given it's a privilege for the few. The very idea that childhood is some kind of halcyion period of precious innocence and whimsical idleness is actually a relatively recent construct.
"Postmodern mental symptoms"? Um, what exactly do you mean by this? ADD and ADHD have been being diagnosed in children since the 50s and 60s....which is close to being pre-modern. And bi-polar disorder is also a pretty old diagnosis, it just used to be called manic depression.
So you're saying that even though you believe that medication can help people suffering from ADHD or bi-polar disorder (because you believe it to be a "proven method of easing symptoms") that you don't think people should be given medication? (Incidentally, where do you draw the conclusion that medication is a "proven method of easing symptoms"?)
Perhaps a better question would be 'how many children who are being abused at home are being misdiagnosed with behavioral disorders'?
Why do segments our society condone child abuse? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 9:17 AM--nothing wrong with being a useful citizen, in fact, it's quite useful, well being, purpose and all that
--post-modern: manic depression = bi-polar; cronic fatigue; actually, I was trying to be clever there...
--if chemicals work for a disorder, use them, but don't issue them for control only.
--"proven method of easing symptoms" - since chemicals are perscribed so widely, it is assumed they work?
-- ask your questions, I'll ask mine :-) -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 9:43 AMRust - are you seeking to resolve your questions through understanding or do you have another motivation?
So if there's nothing wrong with being a useful citizen, why complain about this aspect of a school's function?
Rust wrote - "if chemicals work for a disorder, use them, but don't issue them for control only". and "proven method of easing symptoms - since chemicals are prescribed so widely it's assumed they work?"
Is that last part a question? Assumed by who? Do you mean that you assume they work because they're widely prescribed? I think the other reasons for prescribing pills as a treatment (as opposed to more interactive behavioral therapies) has been widely discussed in this tribe already (especially in regards to medicine in the US).
So, since you seem to consider chemicals to be an acceptable form of treatment for various disorders, how do you think the distinction between chemically treating a disorder so that symptoms are under control (and the child can maintain self control) and controlling the child should be made? Who should be making this decision about a child's welfare?
The thing is that manic depression (aka bipolar disorder) isn't a "post-modern" condition, neither is chronic fatigue (which is caused by a virus and isn't a neurological or behavioral disorder). What's so "clever" about calling something post-modern? Especially if 'post-modern" ends up being an inaccurate representation of the issue that then leads to questions based upon the inaccurate assumption of "post-modern condition"? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 10:34 AM<<<< motivated by understanding
-- was I complaining about school's function? It appeares to be a non-value judgement statement to me... "Childhood education has always been about training and programming someone to be a good and useful citizen, and there have always been those that didn't fit in."
-- I missed that discussion. Who is ever doing the perscribing, surely they would assume the medicine works?
-- good question. I am not qualified to answer that.
-- Busted again! Guess I'm not so clever after all. Hopefully no one was lead too far astray on that one. I was thinking of how mental problems are more accepted, now that a chemical basis is understood, and it seems they're always coming up with new disorders, or new shades of existing ones. Examples may not have been the best.
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 11:00 AMRust - the thing is, has childhood education really always been about training and programming someone to be a good and useful citizen? It seems to me that childhood education has served different purposes in different contexts. Different theories and practices of education are, well, different from each other. Even the most crappy schools recognize there are children with special needs and that don't fit in, and most attempt to help in some way if they have the resources. Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly defending past or current scholastic practices, it's just that if one is interested in seeking a cure/solution then one needs an accurate diagnosis.
For instance, something as simple as over crowding in classrooms causes problems that have absolutely nothing to do with what and how children are taught. And, obviously, creates issues regarding keeping a class focused, engaged and well behaved (and obviously sets up a situation that would logically create an out of control environment). Or what about abusive and inept parenting?
Why would you assume that the people prescribing medication always assume that the medication works? I highly doubt this is the case since there are studies that show that medication alone doesn't effectively treat most behavioral problems. However, the fact that most medical insurance in the US will pay for medication but not behavioral therapies means that doctors have limited choices (with the choice often being limited to medicating someone). And what about parents who'd prefer a "magic bullet' and to medicate their child than look at their own contribution to the situation? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Mon, April 2, 2007 - 11:15 AM"For instance, something as simple as over crowding in classrooms causes problems that have absolutely nothing to do with what and how children are taught. And, obviously, creates issues regarding keeping a class focused, engaged and well behaved (and obviously sets up a situation that would logically create an out of control environment). Or what about abusive and inept parenting?"
I take it, that you worked in public schooling before???? -
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Re: a sickness in the land - dysfunctional junction: q&a
Sat, April 7, 2007 - 10:20 AMNah, just got friends who are teachers :)
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