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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 3:33 PMI just listened to a panel discussion on this on Wednesday. The idea of free will has been in question ever since Libet's original found this back in the 80's. Everyone seems to have a different explanation for this. The view that resonates the most with me is with backwards time referral. We perceive the passage of time as continuous, but conscious awareness is really more of a discreet thing occurring at the gamma frequency. So I don't think it should be much of a surprise that the brain can distort the perception of time to its own purposes. Recent studies by Hammeroff & Penrose suggest that the process that gives rise to conscious experience is a cycle of quantum wave function collapse at gamma. Time doesn't follow the normal rules at a quantum level which is strong argument for the possibility or this backwards time referal. At the quantum level both the past and future are acceptable boundary conditions for determining the present. The Wheeler delayed choice experiment has show that entangled photon can revise a system backwards by tens of milliseconds.
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 3:48 PMAnd now for an entirely different explanation. I just observed myself trying to remember something. Just before I remembered it I had a feeling that I remembered it. Kinda like that "tip of the tongue" feeling. The Libet experiment compares the moment that you are aware of your decision to the time it looks like your brain is making it. So maybe we're consciously making decisions just outside of our domain of awareness. -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:55 AM...or maybe awareness is not so neatly divided between "conscious" and "unconscious," but is rather a continuum that increases in magnitude from the lowest level to the highest... So the first flickering of a choice occurs at a lower level before it becomes magnified by degrees into the higher level... -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 8:28 AM"It's true that most of this technology is still gestational. But the early experiments are compelling: Some researchers say that fMRI brain scans can detect surprisingly specific mental acts — like whether you're entertaining racist thoughts, doing arithmetic, reading, or recognizing something. Entrepreneurs are already pushing dubious forms of the tech into the marketplace: You can now hire a firm, No Lie MRI, to conduct a "truth verification" scan if you're trying to prove you're on the level. Give it 10 years, ethicists say, and brain tools will be used regularly — sometimes responsibly, often shoddily.
Both situations scare civil libertarians. What happens when the government starts using brain scans in criminal investigations — to figure out if, say, a suspect is lying about a terrorist plot? Will the Fifth Amendment protect you from self-incrimination by your own brain? Think about your workplace, too: Your boss can already demand that you pee in a cup. Should she also be allowed to stick your head in an MRI tube as part of your performance review?"
from www.wired.com/techbiz/peo.../st_thompson -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:30 AMIt's an interesting philosophical question. Is some level of deception healthy for society and/or its members? Can lying serve a positive purpose? I'm a great advocate for truth, but due to variations in personal values from person to person the truth can sometimes get you in trouble. It also gives more power to the people with the big guns.
So if society isn't ready for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, will it ever be? What changes need to take place to get us there?
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 1:43 PMthis has always been my gut reaction to this kind of finding. it almost seems semantic on one level.
"...or maybe awareness is not so neatly divided between "conscious" and "unconscious," but is rather a continuum that increases in magnitude from the lowest level to the highest... So the first flickering of a choice occurs at a lower level before it becomes magnified by degrees into the higher level..." -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:27 AMI'm with you on that one...no neural activity is discrete (which is why I like the meteorological metaphor for neural activity... sat in Haworth, I can say it started raining at 8:15 this morning, but at what point did the processes that led to the experience of rain at 8:15 in Haworth 'start'?)
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 10:57 AM<"Recent studies by Hammeroff & Penrose suggest that the process that gives rise to conscious experience is a cycle of quantum wave function collapse at gamma.">
To call Hammeroff and Penrose's position 'contraversial' would be putting it nicely. I think the general consensus among both physicists and cognitive scientists is that these guys have gone off the deep end. -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 1:13 PM"To call Hammeroff and Penrose's position 'controversial' would be putting it nicely. I think the general consensus among both physicists and cognitive scientists is that these guys have gone off the deep end."
Yes, and I post the quote from my prof's book (Relativity and the Nature of Spacetime) once again on this forum, to emphasize that quantum laws apply only at the far microscopic quantum level, and manifest at middle and macro scales deterministically/linear-causally, as Bohr's correspondence principle states.
To imagine that brain activity, an activity of bodily organization at a non-quantum level, should somehow be exempt from this principle is to make an extraordinary claim, and as Carl Sagan said of such claims, requires extraordinary proof.
"The irrelevance of the quantum mechanical argument for the debate over the nature of spacetime is perhaps best seen from the fact that you are able to read this text. The equations of motion govern the behaviour of quantum objects at the microscopic level, where electrons, protons, neutrons, atoms. etc., live. All these entities act in accordance with the probabilistic laws of quantum mechanics. However, when the quantum mechanical equations of motion are applied at the macroscopic level, according to Bohr's correspondence principle, they should coincide with the classical equations of motion. In the case of spacetime this means that no matter how the constituents of the worldline of a given object behave - deterministically or probabilistically - it will not affect the shape of the worldline. To illustrate this situation better, consider the letters of the text you are reading. Each letter consists of billions of electrons, protons, etc., whose behaviour is probabilistic. If the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics were also manifested at the macroscopic level (the level of the letters on this page), then all letters would also behave in a probabilistic manner - constantly changing their shape and jumping around."
People are desperate to find loopholes for free will, time travel, whatever, in the quantum realm, forgetting that it applies only to quanta, not to objects at our scale and above. A particular particle (or sub-particle?) might go back in time, but an object made up of trillions of independently probabiliistic quanta probably (no pun intended) can't. Nor should activity arising from it (mental activity) logically be able to.
Perhaps there might another way for a consciousness to range freely in spacetime (at least within the finite worldline of its body), but not because of quantum probability. -
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Re: Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:48 AMI have no vested interest in Penrose's wilder speculations other than I like to encourage wild speculation for it's own sake and the stimulation it can provide... I agree wholeheartedly with your point about needing "extraordinary proof"... that said, I don't think the seperation of quantum and macro phenomena can be held as such a given as you suggest. Quantum phenomena can certainly be detected by human agency, through instruments of our devising, and the outcome of quantum events thus be seen to impact on macro phenomena. Once this is demonstrated as physically possible one has to surely allow the possibility that naturally evolving mechanisms could also develop this capacity (creating channels whereby quantum phenomena impact on the macro world in a non-statistical fashion). Whether the brain has such a capacity is not for me to say (certainly it looks as if the mechanisms that Penrose puts forward simply fail when one looks at the physics if one takes in the views of his peers) and until Penrose's advocates can suggest some experimental procedures or more compelling argument the whole point remains one of outrageous thought experiment for its own sake.
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Brain scanner predicts your future moves (New Scientist Article)topic posted Sun, April 13, 2008 - 12:56 PM by Taliesin ap Lyn |
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