brain culture

topic posted Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:31 AM by  Fifi
In another thread I was asked about a study that shows cultural differences influence brain function. It seemed to deserve it's own thread since it is a topic far from the original topic. Here's an article about the study :-)

www.sciencedaily.com/release...2934.htm
posted by:
Fifi
Canada
  • Re: brain culture

    Wed, January 16, 2008 - 5:59 PM
    Very interesting in its own right. Thanks.

    Also rather synchronistic in that I just finished a book* I got yesterday which underscores the achievements of East Asian - Chinese to be exact - civilization back when European "civilization" was still in the throes of medieval superstition and ignorance. Perhaps the results of this brain study reflect the effects of many centuries of East Asian cultures' emphasis on group cohesion and the ability to think in complex relative terms.

    To quote the article:

    "Everyone uses the same attention machinery for more difficult cognitive tasks, but they are trained to use it in different ways, and it's the culture that does the training," Gabrieli says. "It's fascinating that the way in which the brain responds to these simple drawings reflects, in a predictable way, how the individual thinks about independent or interdependent social relationships."

    Worth further study.

    (*This book makes a very good case that the Ming Dynasty Chinese, who had a navy with centuries of technical expertise behind it, settled here on the edge of Eastern North America for a brief period more than a century before Columbus... [It's *not* Gavin Menzies' book, 1421.] Political backlash by the mid-15th century, against to the expense of voyages and other expansionist ventures, seems to have led a new emperor to order the complete cessation of all overseas projects.)

    (P.S.: for a moment, the title of the thread made me think of growing brains in a vat.)
    • Re: brain culture

      Wed, January 16, 2008 - 7:27 PM
      Kai - I thought it was pretty interesting too, even if the study seemed to be quite small and it hasn't been reproduced yet. No doubt there's pros and cons to both, depending on context :-)
      • Re: brain culture

        Wed, January 16, 2008 - 9:50 PM
        Yeah, pretty small sample group - just ten of each. But still...
        • Re: brain culture

          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:28 AM
          Very cool - thanks Fifi!

          No doubt this is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the ways culture and learning configures our brains. Seems to me this reinforces the point that the metaphor of brain-as-computer can be taken too literally, especially if it encourages us to expect to find a rigid distinction between hardware and software.

          I wonder if they would find even more processing resources devoted to making relative judgments if they did this experiment on a fundamentalist zealot's brain. Where is Mike Huckabee when we need him?
          • Re: brain culture

            Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:04 PM
            Voodoo - I found it really interesting too, and I also wondered about the differences between a fundamentalists and a more open minded person's decision making process. I've observed (entirely unscientifically!) that some people who grew up in fundamentalist households and then adopt new age beliefs can be just as, well, fundamentalist, literal and rigid about their new belief system. I'm not talking about stubborness or deep conviction really, more just an inability to think in anything but black and white terms. Not all, mind you, some people I've run across obviously "get out" as soon as they're old enough simply because they are critical thinkers and fundamentalism has never made sense to them and are quite fluid and flexible thinkers.
            • Re: brain culture

              Fri, January 18, 2008 - 3:15 PM
              I'd say I'm equally a product of my upbringing, which emphasized critical and independent thinking. Though, part of that could be a neurobiological inheritance as well.

              I recently read a great book - As Nature Made Him (John Colapinto) - which is the story of the twins that Dr. Money's famous theory about how nurture trumps nature was based upon and how the experiment ultimately failed with the boy who was changed into a girl choosing to revert to being a male. A lot of the theories that promote the idea that nurture trumps nature are based upon Money's assertions that proved to be untrue (much as Money tried to cover it up and insist that it was the boy that was wrong not his theory...talk about hubris in action!).
          • Re: brain culture

            Sat, January 19, 2008 - 5:10 AM
            I'd be curious to know if there have been any studies on how the brain works in those who play video games, especially long term players with a plethora of numerous games. (Wouldn't they be another form of Zealot?) Seems to me their brain activity would be "wired" differently than those who eschew gaming. What parts of the brain would be used, for example. Would the brain chemistry be different. What about electrical signaling? I know there are studies on physiological responses of gamers. (heartbeat, blood pressure, sweating, excitability, breathing) What about sleep patterns (dreaming) memory, spatial intelligence, visual acuity, hand-eye coordination? Anybody know of such studies.
            • Re: brain culture

              Sat, January 19, 2008 - 7:13 AM
              Eliz - Great question! I totally share your interest in knowing how technology shapes our brains. Though since we probably don't have many controls that haven't grown up with new media technology we may never know in terms of comparison. I know there have been some studies done regarding spacial relations and video games, nothing in terms of sleep patterns that I know of (though one would suspect that hardcore gamers would be dreaming of gaming a lot). I also read a study about babies brought up watching those brainersize videos (you know, make you child into a genius and baby Mozart kind of thing) tend to start talking later so clearly substituting human interaction for a flat screen has some impact upon the development of children's brains.
          • Re: brain culture

            Sat, January 19, 2008 - 10:49 AM
            Voodoo, you said:

            "Seems to me this reinforces the point that the metaphor of brain-as-computer can be taken too literally, especially if it encourages us to expect to find a rigid distinction between hardware and software."

            I'm not sure I understand what you're saying - that the influence of culture on brain configuration is evidence against the "brain as computer" model?

            I mean, I agree that the "it's a computer" model is suspect (and my philosophy of mind prof recently pointed out that over the course of history the metaphors of what the brain is have tended to track whatever is high-tech at the time - Descartes thought it was like a clock, later folks put forth notions like telegraph signals or telephone switchboards, etc.) and I particularly agree with Patricia Churchland when she states (in her book Brainwise) that the idea of a rigid hardware/software divide describing the brain/mind divide is simply a new form of dualism, with the Cartesian notion of incorporeal mind-stuff being replaced by "software". The implication that this supposed "mind software" is entirely independent of the particular "hardware it runs on" - the brain as we increasingly know it in all its complexity -that it could be realized identically in different hardwares (functionalism), leads to loopy notions like that sci-fi staple "offloading your consciousness into a computer/android body/whatever".

            But it seems to me that a defender of the hardware/software model could easily shoehorn cultural environmental influences into his notion of mind as software by saying that they are simply another bit of code that gets input from one of various outside sources. (Or that some portion of the "software" which is "built-in" responds to these inputs by writing more code into itself.)
            • Re: brain culture

              Sat, January 19, 2008 - 1:01 PM
              > I mean, I agree that the "it's a computer" model is suspect (and my philosophy of mind prof recently pointed out that over the course of history the metaphors of what the brain is have tended to track whatever is high-tech at the time - Descartes thought it was like a clock, later folks put forth notions like telegraph signals or telephone switchboards, etc.) and I particularly agree with Patricia Churchland when she states (in her book Brainwise) that the idea of a rigid hardware/software divide describing the brain/mind divide is simply a new form of dualism, with the Cartesian notion of incorporeal mind-stuff being replaced by "software".

              Can't the current brain/mind dualism, rather than being a sophisticated reflection of Cartesian duality, be more simply explained as a reflection of the current state of technology?
              • Re: brain culture

                Sat, January 19, 2008 - 8:09 PM
                "Can't the current brain/mind dualism, rather than being a sophisticated reflection of Cartesian duality, be more simply explained as a reflection of the current state of technology?"

                Hmm, I was talking about the specific brain-is-a-computer metaphor, not the more general concept of brain/mind dualism of which the literalist software/hardware camp, predominant within the brain = computer circle, partakes in its own way. If you mean to imply that there is just one current brain/mind dualism, the computer with software/hardware one, I'd have to disagree. There are resurgent forms of Cartesian-style dualism (The Thing That Will Not Die, I call it) which, while not necessarily making what Gilbert Ryle calls the "category mistake" - of imagining two different, parallel substances - are very much current, for instance the "mysterianism" of the philosopher Colin McGinn and others. (My reading homework this weekend is a piece of his.)

                If you only meant "current" in the sense of "current among certain AI professionals", then fine... But of course they're not the only ones engaged in philosophy of mind, even within scientific circles. The Churchlands I'd count as within scientific circles. They are engaged with current computer science, cogsci and neurological research, and they stress the importance of being grounded in that (she coined the term "neurophilosophy", which may or may not add more understanding to the debate, but at least it underscores the groundedness lacking in much previous philosophy of mind), while at the same time disagreeing with those also within those circles who are literalist high-tech-metaphorists du jour. I'm not sure I agree or will agree with much of what they say, but my impression so far is that they're at least on the right track in questioning whether human cognition is analogous to *anything* else and stressing that we have to look at the one thing we can study - the brain - without jumping to false comparisons. We love to make analogies and create metaphors, and that's central to how we form concepts in language and how we construct language itself (see George Lakoff's work), but we lead ourselves astray as often as not.

                Anyway, I wouldn't venture to make any broad statements about current brain/mind dualism in general, since there's potentially a variety of irreducibly different - non-equivalent - forms of dualism. (And I'm just beginning to explore what those might be, as a student of philosophy of mind.) Each has to be considered on the basis of its own set of premises.

                So, I didn't mean to imply, and I don't think I stated, that the brain-as-just-like-a-computer (hardware running software, with all that implies) model is a *reflection* (or great-great-grandchild) of Cartesian substance dualism, only that it's a *replacement* which is just as problematic, just for different reasons.

                My impression is that those who promote this particular computer metaphor, with a stark software/hardware divide, think of themselves as *opposed* to substance dualism, since software - or "bits" - isn't a "substance" on a par with (material) hardware - or "atoms" (if I may use the fave Silicon Valley facile distinction of bits vs. atoms. Software engineers and WIRED magazine lifetime-subscription acolytes of Nicholas Negroponte have been patting themselves on the back for that one for years now, but I question the scope of its usefulness. Yeah, yeah; there are bits and there are atoms. So what? What does that distinction really add to the discussion?) But being an alternative to one ancient (i.e., with roots in Plato's Idealism) and much-encrusted form of dualism doesn't necessarily make them any less dualist in their own way.

                I'd say their metaphor rests on a different misconception altogether from Descartes' misconception. I'm still working out what exactly that misconception is. (So sue me... Skepticism at times has to take the form of intuition, a hunch that things, as presented by others, just aren't right - which motivates one to keep digging. A skeptical attitude can't always have its arguments fully formed at the outset.)
                • Re: brain culture

                  Mon, January 21, 2008 - 10:35 AM
                  Kai, you pretty much made all the points I would have made (and several more) in your note to Torroid.

                  I was just pointing out one way in which our metaphors tend to run amok. The process looks something like this:

                  * we have a complex problem to understand (how does the brain/mind work?)

                  * we come up with a metaphor to help us make sense of it (whoa, the brain 'is' a computer!)

                  * we find ways in which our metaphor is confirmed (hey look, it has inputs and outputs!)

                  * we notice ways in which it does not fit our metaphor (WTF - the squishware reconfigures itself in response to learning???)

                  * we carry on sheepishly using the same metaphor because we don't yet have a better one

                  * we forget that we are using metaphors at all


                  There's nothing wrong with using metaphors but it's good to keep mindful of their limitations. Otherwise they lull us into complacency and become anchors for our understanding.

                  It's worth noting that there are more abstract and technical definitions of the word "computer" that people have used to argue that the brain really 'is' a computer, and I'm not objecting to this view. I'm objecting to the use of the popular concept of computers (discrete state serial processing machine with hardware, software, etc.) as a metaphor for the brain. If you tell the average person the brain is a computer, this is what comes to mind, and they will likely draw as many false conclusions as true ones.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: brain culture

                    Mon, January 21, 2008 - 11:08 AM
                    Voodoo - "There's nothing wrong with using metaphors but it's good to keep mindful of their limitations. Otherwise they lull us into complacency and become anchors for our understanding.

                    It's worth noting that there are more abstract and technical definitions of the word "computer" that people have used to argue that the brain really 'is' a computer, and I'm not objecting to this view. I'm objecting to the use of the popular concept of computers (discrete state serial processing machine with hardware, software, etc.) as a metaphor for the brain. If you tell the average person the brain is a computer, this is what comes to mind, and they will likely draw as many false conclusions as true ones."

                    You and Kai both make fantastic points, and with a level of expertize and complexity that I couldn't. Thanks! It's great reading such well elucidated thoughts. I often find myself shaking my head at how the computer/brain analogy creates misunderstandings. Particularly for people who aren't knowledgeable about either. Metaphors are good for superficial understandings and explaining things to others at times, but they presume a sort of complete understanding of things that are still very much questions. Or so I've found. Like you say, people often then try to make the thing being discussed *into* the metaphor!
                    • Re: brain culture

                      Mon, January 21, 2008 - 3:55 PM
                      "* we forget that we are using metaphors at all "

                      This is what leads to what Lakoff refers to as "dead metaphors" - ones that have been part of language so long that we no longer see them as metaphors but take them literally. Language is so full of metaphors, indeed is constructed mostly of them, that we can't escape them, but it's useful to remind oneself regularly of that reality. Otherwise the metaphors don't just become anchors, they become cement overshoes, and Luca Brazzi ain't the only one sleeping with the fishes: our ability to think creatively is down there at the bottom of the East River too, struggling futilely to swim to the surface. (How's that for fun with metaphors? Yes, The Godfather was on TV again recently.)

                      My Critical Thinking prof a couple of years ago, a wise-ass New Yorker with a degree in rhetoric, liked to quote Nietzsche: "All words are tropes."
                      • Re: brain culture

                        Mon, January 21, 2008 - 5:05 PM
                        Thanks Fifi!

                        Kai: "This is what leads to what Lakoff refers to as "dead metaphors" - ones that have been part of language so long that we no longer see them as metaphors but take them literally."

                        I notice sayings like this from time to time. Do you remember any of the examples Lakoff gives?

                        I find Robert Anton Wilson to be a great source for bringing our unconscious use of metaphors to awareness. Reading and posting on this thread, I keep hearing his voice in the back of my mind reading a passage from Prometheus Rising: "The brain can be considered as a computer. Note that I did not say that the brain 'is' a computer."
                        • Re: brain culture

                          Tue, January 22, 2008 - 11:34 AM
                          Voodoo - I enjoy RAW too, he was a very funny and creative guy. I've always taken him to be more of a prankster, though I know some people take his writings very seriously. Though, like any good prankster, he wasn't about to lay his cards on the table because that would spoil the fun! Not that one can't or shouldn't take a good prank seriously! ;-) Considering his take on religion, I've always found it kind of odd that some people treat his writings like a religion though! Not counting, of course, the Church of the SubGenius.

                          This quote from an interview is kind of nice for a science tribe :-)

                          "Faith-based organizations say we don't need any more research, we know enough now, we can be dogmatic, whereas researchers say we don't know enough now, investigate, research," argues Wilson. "Faith is a reason to become stupid: 'From this point forward, I will remain stupid.' To me, faith-based organizations are responsible for everything I see wrong with this planet. Research-based organizations are responsible for everything I like about it. Before the French Revolution, the average life expectancy was 37 years. Now it's 78 years. All due to research-based organizations. Not at all due to faith-based organizations. All faith-based organizations give you is George Bush. Research-based organizations give you cures for disease."

                          • Re: brain culture

                            Wed, January 23, 2008 - 11:00 AM
                            Yeah, I'm a big fan of RAW, but in my experience, many of his admirers are sheepish and treat him as a guru. This is unfortunate, and ironic, since he openly admitted that he mixed truth and falsity in his writings and implored people to think for themselves. I was hoping the RAW tribe would have some critical discussion of his ideas, but no such luck.
                            • Re: brain culture

                              Wed, January 23, 2008 - 11:44 AM
                              Voodoo - I hear ya, people get very attached to explanations that they think affirm their beliefs or that reveal "the secret" or the answer to life, the universe and everything (and I don't deny being one of the "people" myself, but my curiosity just tends to override everything else eventually ;-). And, well, RAW was brilliant and funny...though taking him too seriously seems to kind of miss the point and the fun of his ideas.
                      • Re: brain culture

                        Tue, January 22, 2008 - 7:52 AM
                        thank you Kai,

                        I like that. otherwise the metaphors don't remain metaphors, they become cement shoes.!!

                        Well put and possibly applicable to other situations .

                        Thank you.
                        You made my day and its very early.
                    • Re: brain culture

                      Mon, January 21, 2008 - 4:14 PM
                      BTW, thanks, Fifi. :-) But I leaven the warm and fuzzy feeling I get from such praise with Bucky Fuller's observation: "The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know."
              • connectivity, was brain as computer.

                Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:48 PM
                I think the scientific ideas of brain function go a lot further than a naieve model
                of compoutation. The big difference, it seems to me is that every neuron intereacts with about 10,000
                neighbors, where in most comouters there are only about 4. So that mental images, if
                you want to think of them that way, achieve a level of (10000)^n connections at the level of
                n near neighbors, which means that evem with the slowness of neural signals, the
                speed of silicon is outweighed by the brain's connectivity.

                As far as I know, only very small assamblages of neurons can be modelled by the biggest fastest silicon.
                I think some folks at Santa Barbara were looking into computational models of neurons, but
                I am on vacation from libraries and sources. And the parallel chem/hormonal system doesn't have much of
                a computing analog...
                • Re: connectivity, was brain as computer.

                  Thu, January 24, 2008 - 9:37 AM
                  Artwit - Thanks for the technical input! Of course, that doesn't mean it's not interesting to try to create computers that act like brains, or that we may not one day do so. (Though ultimately wouldn't we want to create a computer that's much more stable and consistent than a brain tends to be? That does what most of us aren't able to do?)
                • Re: connectivity, was brain as computer.

                  Thu, January 24, 2008 - 11:09 AM
                  Good points, Artwit!

                  We have come a long way in modeling brains, but to my knowledge, it seems like we're nowhere near being able to model processes like the reconfiguration of the physical brain in response to culture and learning like we saw in the target article of this thread. One could say that we don't really need that once we can model all the connections with software, but if we're interested in biological realism our models will eventually have to take processes like this into account somehow.
                • Re: connectivity, was brain as computer.

                  Sat, January 26, 2008 - 3:59 PM
                  Artwit says: "the parallel chem/hormonal system doesn't have much of a computing analog... "

                  Sure it does; multi-threading and parallel computing. Recent breakthroughs in networking will demonstrate that in excess of one-million connections per/second are possible by the end of next year these appliances will be available 'off-the-shelf'. With the combination of these three things, computers are poised to actually eclipse the brains processing power when it comes to speed and connectivity.

                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing
                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multithreading
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    "parallel" connectivity, was brain as computer.

                    Sat, January 26, 2008 - 7:03 PM
                    II wasn't referring to parallel computation, wehich is common to both silicon and "meat," but to the
                    chemical hormonal system in the body and brain, operating alongside the neural system,
                    which doesn't seem to have an analog in silicon. It would be like a CPU changing its functional mode if the coolants
                    were changed...